UPDATED: Murderer Edward Redman to be sentenced in May

Edward Redman

Edward Redman

First published in News
Last updated

Scroll down for the latest updates.

See today's Gazette for seven-pages of coverage, including interviews with Jay's family and a summary of the court case.

EDWARD Redman has been found guilty of murdering teenager Jay Whiston.

The 18-year-old, originally from Halstead Road, Colchester, denied murdering Jay, 17, of Clacton, at a party in Colchester nearly two years ago.

Edward’s father Gary Redman, 51, and brother John Redman, 20, were found guilty of conspiring to pervert the course of justice in connection with the murder.

His former girlfriend Shannon Fenlon, 19, has also been found guilty of conspiring to pervert the course of justice.

 

Braintree and Witham Times: cfg jay whiston.jpg

               Jay Whiston

UPDATE 10am Tuesday, April 8

 

MURDERER Edward Redman will be sentenced in May.

He will be given a mandatory life sentence but Judge Charles Gratwicke will decide on his minimum term before he is eligible to apply for parole.

A pre sentence report is being prepared ahead of sentencing on May 1.

His father, brother and ex-girlfriend will also be sentenced the same day.

Edward Redman was found guilty of stabbing 17-year-old Jay Whiston at a house party on Saturday, September 8.

Alongside Edward Redman in the dock were his 51-year-old self-employed father, Gary Redman; his 20-year-old student brother, John Redman; and his former girlfriend, unemployed 19-year-old Shannon Fenlon.

They were all found guilty of conspiring to pervert the course of justice.

They were all remanded into custody.    

 

 

 

 

UPDATE: 4.50pm

Nick Alston, Police and Crime Commissioner for Essex, said: "Justice has now been done. But a sense of loss and sadness remains.

"By all accounts, Jay was a fine young man. I did not have the privilege of meeting him.

"I have been fortunate enough to meet Caroline Shearer, Jay’s mother, on many occasions.

"I have also witnessed the work that she has led through her organisation, Only Cowards Carry, to educate young people about the dangers of knife crime.

"All of us who live in Essex must continue to make it clear that there is no place for knives or weapons in our communities.

"I thank Senior Investigating Officer, DI Anne Cameron, and all her team, for their exceptional work in this case.

"I sincerely hope the verdict brings some comfort to Caroline, her family and all of Jay’s friends as they seek to rebuild their lives."

UPDATE: 4.40pm

All three Redmans and Fenlon were remanded in custody and will be sentenced later.

But he was told by Judge Gratwicke: "You should prepare yourself for a substantial sentence."

Sentence on all four is expected in around four weeks time.

It took the jury of seven men and five women four hours to return their unanimous verdicts on the Redmans.

UPDATE: 4.30pm

All three members of the Redman family showed no emotion as the unanimous verdicts were announced.

Jay's mother Caroline Shearer, who has attended every day of the 13 week trial, had to be helped from the court and there was crying and shouts of "yes" and clapping from the public gallery.

UPDATE 3.45pm

Senior Investigating Officer, DI Anne Cameron, said: "The trial has been an extremely emotional few months for a number of people, not least Jay’s family and friends who have actually had 18 months of grief and anger in a search for justice.

"Ever since he was a young teenager Edward Redman has been a prolific offender, posing a threat to others within the community especially those who stood up to him.

"He is a violent selfish thug who does not care for anyone else’s needs.

"Jay was a young, charming morally courageous young man who would stand up to those who did wrong.

"Sadly, his life came to an end due to his heroic actions.

"Edward Redman stabbed Jay twice at a house party in a senseless, unprovoked attack.

"He assaulted Jay in front of his friends before fleeing the scene with them and discarding the murder weapon and clothing.

"Following nearly 12 weeks’ testimony from witnesses, many of whom are just teenagers themselves, Jay’s family and friends can finally breathe a sigh of relief that Edward Redman will be sentenced to life imprisonment.

"On behalf of Essex Police, I would like to thank the many witnesses who have supported the investigation by providing statements and testifying at court.

"Their courage to ensure the truth was told, whatever the pressure put upon them, will have placed a great deal of undue stress on them and their family and friends. For this we are very grateful.

"I am eternally grateful for their honesty and wish them well in their lives and future careers.

"I want to thank my team and others who worked within this investigation. They have worked tirelessly over the past 18 months to ensure justice is seen for the fruitless murder of Jay. Their actions have put a dangerous, criminal behind bars.

"I am also comforted that guilty verdicts also delivered against Edward Redman’s father, brother and former girlfriend.

"It is not acceptable that these people actively disposed of evidence to protect Edward Redman in the knowledge that he had taken someone else’s life.

"This was a complex, drawn-out investigation due to the volume of vulnerable young witnesses at the scene, of whom no-one saw the murder weapon.

"The trauma suffered by some of these witnesses and fear of retribution from Redman and his associates caused further complications.

"My team were able to thread their way through the web of lies spun by the defendants in order to reach the truth and discover how Jay was killed.

"We have worked closely with Jay’s family during this investigation and I hope that the verdicts today will assist in them coming to terms with their grief.

"I do formally offer my condolences to all of them but am minded whilst Edward Redman will spend many years in jail. No action from any individual will bring Jay back into their lives.”

Comments (47)

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3:18pm Mon 7 Apr 14

Cuthbert says...

Excellent news.

I'd heard that this guy was a scumbag, even without the events of this case and hopefully he'll cause no other families the heartbreak that the Whiston family have had to suffer this last couple of years.
Excellent news. I'd heard that this guy was a scumbag, even without the events of this case and hopefully he'll cause no other families the heartbreak that the Whiston family have had to suffer this last couple of years. Cuthbert
  • Score: 62

3:22pm Mon 7 Apr 14

Shaneblackdarkknight says...

Good ,, I pray his parents have peace and although jay will never be brought back they see justice has been done ,, my thoughts are with you .
Good ,, I pray his parents have peace and although jay will never be brought back they see justice has been done ,, my thoughts are with you . Shaneblackdarkknight
  • Score: 48

3:22pm Mon 7 Apr 14

Bengreen1980 says...

Thinking of you Caroline x
Thinking of you Caroline x Bengreen1980
  • Score: 20

3:31pm Mon 7 Apr 14

Minnie1980 says...

FINALLY, Lets hope they keep that scum bag locked up!!
Now lets hope his Mum can get some peace!

Remember - ONLY COWARDS CARRY!!
RIP Jay xo
FINALLY, Lets hope they keep that scum bag locked up!! Now lets hope his Mum can get some peace! Remember - ONLY COWARDS CARRY!! RIP Jay xo Minnie1980
  • Score: 45

3:31pm Mon 7 Apr 14

Route88 says...

We can only hope that Redman and those who attempted to cover up the crime receive a sentence which reflects the gravity of the offences. Redman changed a lot of peoples lives when he decided to arm himself with a knife before going out and I hope the judge seizes the opportunity to send out a strong message to others who are tempted to do the same.
We can only hope that Redman and those who attempted to cover up the crime receive a sentence which reflects the gravity of the offences. Redman changed a lot of peoples lives when he decided to arm himself with a knife before going out and I hope the judge seizes the opportunity to send out a strong message to others who are tempted to do the same. Route88
  • Score: 67

4:09pm Mon 7 Apr 14

pierre-pierre says...

reply to Cuthbert

Senior Investigating Officer, DI Anne Cameron, said:

"Ever since he was a young teenager Edward Redman has been a prolific offender, posing a threat to others within the community especially those who stood up to him.

"He is a violent selfish thug who does not care for anyone else’s needs.

"Jay was a young, charming morally courageous young man who would stand up to those who did wrong.
reply to Cuthbert Senior Investigating Officer, DI Anne Cameron, said: "Ever since he was a young teenager Edward Redman has been a prolific offender, posing a threat to others within the community especially those who stood up to him. "He is a violent selfish thug who does not care for anyone else’s needs. "Jay was a young, charming morally courageous young man who would stand up to those who did wrong. pierre-pierre
  • Score: 17

4:18pm Mon 7 Apr 14

Heinz says...

Sadly, Redman won't serve 'life' unless the judge imposes a whole life term (very unlikely). Also, as he's under 21, I think he'll get out in less than 5 years.
Sadly, Redman won't serve 'life' unless the judge imposes a whole life term (very unlikely). Also, as he's under 21, I think he'll get out in less than 5 years. Heinz
  • Score: -40

5:24pm Mon 7 Apr 14

Zaffre says...

Our teen killer, Alex Young got 15 years in 2008 so Redman should get more than 5 years surely.
http://news.bbc.co.u
k/1/hi/uk/7463525.st
m
Our teen killer, Alex Young got 15 years in 2008 so Redman should get more than 5 years surely. http://news.bbc.co.u k/1/hi/uk/7463525.st m Zaffre
  • Score: 17

5:46pm Mon 7 Apr 14

oOI Daza IOo says...

Why do people have to put a downer on the outcome? He will be sure to get more than 5 years.

My heart goes out to Caroline and we should all applaud her for her work with Only Cowards Carry.

Hopefully the sentence deters others from thinking they will get away doing the same thing.
Why do people have to put a downer on the outcome? He will be sure to get more than 5 years. My heart goes out to Caroline and we should all applaud her for her work with Only Cowards Carry. Hopefully the sentence deters others from thinking they will get away doing the same thing. oOI Daza IOo
  • Score: 24

8:01pm Mon 7 Apr 14

Council Man says...

According to tonight’s news report he was smiling as he was taken down. Apparently he is a prolific offender who has many previous convictions for violence amongst other things. I hope this scumbag get a long sentence giving him time to reflect on what he has done. My heart goes out to Jay’s family; they must feel some small sense of relief at what has been a very long and stressful 13 week trial. Redman could have avoided this by doing the decent thing and pleading guilty, he had big enough balls to stick a knife into someone and end their life but not big enough to take the witness stand and answer for his actions or even defend himself. This makes him a coward and his family, father and brother are lower than the lowest form of life, I hope they also get lengthy custodial sentences.
In situations such as this my thoughts are usually with both the family of the deceased and the family of the perpetrator as they too would have been affected by what had happened. There are no winner’s just losers and lives changed forever. However, in this instance, I have absolutely no sympathy for the Redman family I hope their lives are ruined beyond repair. Let’s see how young Redman gets on in an adult prison, I understand the older lifers like young meat, maybe he’ll get something stuck into him…………… if you know what I mean ; - )
According to tonight’s news report he was smiling as he was taken down. Apparently he is a prolific offender who has many previous convictions for violence amongst other things. I hope this scumbag get a long sentence giving him time to reflect on what he has done. My heart goes out to Jay’s family; they must feel some small sense of relief at what has been a very long and stressful 13 week trial. Redman could have avoided this by doing the decent thing and pleading guilty, he had big enough balls to stick a knife into someone and end their life but not big enough to take the witness stand and answer for his actions or even defend himself. This makes him a coward and his family, father and brother are lower than the lowest form of life, I hope they also get lengthy custodial sentences. In situations such as this my thoughts are usually with both the family of the deceased and the family of the perpetrator as they too would have been affected by what had happened. There are no winner’s just losers and lives changed forever. However, in this instance, I have absolutely no sympathy for the Redman family I hope their lives are ruined beyond repair. Let’s see how young Redman gets on in an adult prison, I understand the older lifers like young meat, maybe he’ll get something stuck into him…………… if you know what I mean ; - ) Council Man
  • Score: 45

9:05pm Mon 7 Apr 14

ClactonObserver says...

I'm glad the scumbag and his scummy family are being locked up. Lets hope the sentences are long enough. RIP Jay
I'm glad the scumbag and his scummy family are being locked up. Lets hope the sentences are long enough. RIP Jay ClactonObserver
  • Score: 28

10:30pm Mon 7 Apr 14

redmantohang says...

Lets hop bens law is applied to the full http://www.mirror.co
.uk/news/uk-news/ben
s-law-knife-murder-m
inimum-430241
Lets hop bens law is applied to the full http://www.mirror.co .uk/news/uk-news/ben s-law-knife-murder-m inimum-430241 redmantohang
  • Score: 8

12:00am Tue 8 Apr 14

Tweacle Tart says...

Skanky little rat. Ugh!

It will be more than five years. I really wish people who believe what they're fed by The Sun wouldn't make such silly comments. It's a murder conviction FFS! Judges get a lot of criticism in this country but if you bothered to read their full sentencing remarks, if available, they have a very good understanding of the cases they are dealing with - their hands are tied by the sentencing guidelines they're given.

He'll probably get maybe 18+ years - use of a knife automatically carries a higher penalty as will his previous offending however, unfortunately, his age will be a big mitigating factor.

Others will get between two to seven years for perverting the course of justice I think.
Skanky little rat. Ugh! It will be more than five years. I really wish people who believe what they're fed by The Sun wouldn't make such silly comments. It's a murder conviction FFS! Judges get a lot of criticism in this country but if you bothered to read their full sentencing remarks, if available, they have a very good understanding of the cases they are dealing with - their hands are tied by the sentencing guidelines they're given. He'll probably get maybe 18+ years - use of a knife automatically carries a higher penalty as will his previous offending however, unfortunately, his age will be a big mitigating factor. Others will get between two to seven years for perverting the course of justice I think. Tweacle Tart
  • Score: 12

8:22am Tue 8 Apr 14

Shaneblackdarkknight says...

Heinz wrote:
Sadly, Redman won't serve 'life' unless the judge imposes a whole life term (very unlikely). Also, as he's under 21, I think he'll get out in less than 5 years.
Less than 5 years that's absurd ,, he WILL get a minimum term off 20 plus years and then will have to prove to the parol board year after year untill them see fit to release him . Then again with his issues and attitude I doubt he will make it that far I strongly believe he will die in prison .
[quote][p][bold]Heinz[/bold] wrote: Sadly, Redman won't serve 'life' unless the judge imposes a whole life term (very unlikely). Also, as he's under 21, I think he'll get out in less than 5 years.[/p][/quote]Less than 5 years that's absurd ,, he WILL get a minimum term off 20 plus years and then will have to prove to the parol board year after year untill them see fit to release him . Then again with his issues and attitude I doubt he will make it that far I strongly believe he will die in prison . Shaneblackdarkknight
  • Score: 8

8:37am Tue 8 Apr 14

Yendor says says...

For murders committed with a knife after 2 March 2010 the minimum term is now 25 years ..... Shame !
For murders committed with a knife after 2 March 2010 the minimum term is now 25 years ..... Shame ! Yendor says
  • Score: 15

10:50am Tue 8 Apr 14

Red Tape 2 says...

Not so hard now! Let's hope he gets a nice warm welcome at the big house.... preferably by a big, hairy bloke called Gloria....
Not so hard now! Let's hope he gets a nice warm welcome at the big house.... preferably by a big, hairy bloke called Gloria.... Red Tape 2
  • Score: 18

11:05am Tue 8 Apr 14

Colonel Kurtz says...

What a moron. Better off without this idiot in the gene pool
What a moron. Better off without this idiot in the gene pool Colonel Kurtz
  • Score: 17

1:21pm Tue 8 Apr 14

super waluigi says...

Nothing good can come of a teenager being murdered or someone being found guilty.

Let's hope that Jays mother and family can get something out of the verdict and perhaps move on with their lives, although they will never get over this trauma.

Let's hope the teenager who committed this murder is helped to become a better person in prison. If he can be re educated to fully understand the pain he has dealt to others, then perhaps he will carry the burden of being a murderer for the rest of his life and not just for 25 years.

Let's hope that Jay can rest in peace.
Nothing good can come of a teenager being murdered or someone being found guilty. Let's hope that Jays mother and family can get something out of the verdict and perhaps move on with their lives, although they will never get over this trauma. Let's hope the teenager who committed this murder is helped to become a better person in prison. If he can be re educated to fully understand the pain he has dealt to others, then perhaps he will carry the burden of being a murderer for the rest of his life and not just for 25 years. Let's hope that Jay can rest in peace. super waluigi
  • Score: -8

1:33pm Tue 8 Apr 14

driver4108 says...

I should think, with the current state of knife crime in Colchester they will make an example of this little cretin.
He will make Winston a very happy man in prison!!
I should think, with the current state of knife crime in Colchester they will make an example of this little cretin. He will make Winston a very happy man in prison!! driver4108
  • Score: 9

1:38pm Tue 8 Apr 14

Scoot says...

Yes he may get 5 years but whatever it is is it really going to be long enough ? He will probably have some QC paid for by the taxpayer to stand up and plea that his sentence isn't long because he will reform in prison and needs a decent quality of life in the future. As I said in another comment last week, if we can't have the death penalty then we should introduce castration so that little scumbags like this cannot sow their seed when they come out. Maybe castration/steralisa
tion should also apply to all those who covered up for him.
Yes he may get 5 years but whatever it is is it really going to be long enough ? He will probably have some QC paid for by the taxpayer to stand up and plea that his sentence isn't long because he will reform in prison and needs a decent quality of life in the future. As I said in another comment last week, if we can't have the death penalty then we should introduce castration so that little scumbags like this cannot sow their seed when they come out. Maybe castration/steralisa tion should also apply to all those who covered up for him. Scoot
  • Score: 8

1:59pm Tue 8 Apr 14

Angry of Lexden says...

Zaffre wrote:
Our teen killer, Alex Young got 15 years in 2008 so Redman should get more than 5 years surely. http://news.bbc.co.u k/1/hi/uk/7463525.st m
Sad to tell you that a colleague of mine's son, who was at the same school as the killers of that young mum, was horrified to come face to face with one them last year in Colchester. By my reckoning that's five years free board and lodging for a brutal murder.
[quote][p][bold]Zaffre[/bold] wrote: Our teen killer, Alex Young got 15 years in 2008 so Redman should get more than 5 years surely. http://news.bbc.co.u k/1/hi/uk/7463525.st m[/p][/quote]Sad to tell you that a colleague of mine's son, who was at the same school as the killers of that young mum, was horrified to come face to face with one them last year in Colchester. By my reckoning that's five years free board and lodging for a brutal murder. Angry of Lexden
  • Score: 2

2:11pm Tue 8 Apr 14

Tweacle Tart says...

Angry of Lexden wrote:
Zaffre wrote:
Our teen killer, Alex Young got 15 years in 2008 so Redman should get more than 5 years surely. http://news.bbc.co.u k/1/hi/uk/7463525.st m
Sad to tell you that a colleague of mine's son, who was at the same school as the killers of that young mum, was horrified to come face to face with one them last year in Colchester. By my reckoning that's five years free board and lodging for a brutal murder.
Which one though? The younger of the two was only given four years for manslaughter.
[quote][p][bold]Angry of Lexden[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Zaffre[/bold] wrote: Our teen killer, Alex Young got 15 years in 2008 so Redman should get more than 5 years surely. http://news.bbc.co.u k/1/hi/uk/7463525.st m[/p][/quote]Sad to tell you that a colleague of mine's son, who was at the same school as the killers of that young mum, was horrified to come face to face with one them last year in Colchester. By my reckoning that's five years free board and lodging for a brutal murder.[/p][/quote]Which one though? The younger of the two was only given four years for manslaughter. Tweacle Tart
  • Score: 3

2:33pm Tue 8 Apr 14

Yendor says says...

Scoot wrote:
Yes he may get 5 years but whatever it is is it really going to be long enough ? He will probably have some QC paid for by the taxpayer to stand up and plea that his sentence isn't long because he will reform in prison and needs a decent quality of life in the future. As I said in another comment last week, if we can't have the death penalty then we should introduce castration so that little scumbags like this cannot sow their seed when they come out. Maybe castration/steralisa tion should also apply to all those who covered up for him.
For the avoidance of doubt, the starting point for a crime like this is 25 years. Please check the CPS website.

https://www.cps.gov.
uk/legal/s_to_u/sent
encing_-_mandatory_l
ife_sentences_in_mur
der_cases/
[quote][p][bold]Scoot[/bold] wrote: Yes he may get 5 years but whatever it is is it really going to be long enough ? He will probably have some QC paid for by the taxpayer to stand up and plea that his sentence isn't long because he will reform in prison and needs a decent quality of life in the future. As I said in another comment last week, if we can't have the death penalty then we should introduce castration so that little scumbags like this cannot sow their seed when they come out. Maybe castration/steralisa tion should also apply to all those who covered up for him.[/p][/quote]For the avoidance of doubt, the starting point for a crime like this is 25 years. Please check the CPS website. https://www.cps.gov. uk/legal/s_to_u/sent encing_-_mandatory_l ife_sentences_in_mur der_cases/ Yendor says
  • Score: 2

3:39pm Tue 8 Apr 14

Scoot says...

Agreed Yendor but what I was getting at is that he will have some QC paid for by legal aid (i.e you and me) who will use no doubt umpteen bits of para 11 to mitigate that he shouldn't get the full sentence (I am suprised the way the country is going that denying a murderer his human rights isn't in there). Believe you me for clear cut callous murders like this I believe that public hanging should be brought back.
Agreed Yendor but what I was getting at is that he will have some QC paid for by legal aid (i.e you and me) who will use no doubt umpteen bits of para 11 to mitigate that he shouldn't get the full sentence (I am suprised the way the country is going that denying a murderer his human rights isn't in there). Believe you me for clear cut callous murders like this I believe that public hanging should be brought back. Scoot
  • Score: 2

4:19pm Tue 8 Apr 14

paddy16 says...

Sell the fathers firm, all proceeds to Jays charity !!!
Soon see how smug, tough & clever they all are then won't we ?
Sell the fathers firm, all proceeds to Jays charity !!! Soon see how smug, tough & clever they all are then won't we ? paddy16
  • Score: 17

4:21pm Tue 8 Apr 14

Angry of Lexden says...

Tweacle Tart wrote:
Angry of Lexden wrote:
Zaffre wrote:
Our teen killer, Alex Young got 15 years in 2008 so Redman should get more than 5 years surely. http://news.bbc.co.u k/1/hi/uk/7463525.st m
Sad to tell you that a colleague of mine's son, who was at the same school as the killers of that young mum, was horrified to come face to face with one them last year in Colchester. By my reckoning that's five years free board and lodging for a brutal murder.
Which one though? The younger of the two was only given four years for manslaughter.
Hello Tweacle,
Interesting, I've responded to you or last comment twice and neither got through - I guess I shouldn't have confirmed the actual name of the individual

Let's try it another way - it's confirmed as the person named at the start of Zaffres note.

Regards.
[quote][p][bold]Tweacle Tart[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Angry of Lexden[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Zaffre[/bold] wrote: Our teen killer, Alex Young got 15 years in 2008 so Redman should get more than 5 years surely. http://news.bbc.co.u k/1/hi/uk/7463525.st m[/p][/quote]Sad to tell you that a colleague of mine's son, who was at the same school as the killers of that young mum, was horrified to come face to face with one them last year in Colchester. By my reckoning that's five years free board and lodging for a brutal murder.[/p][/quote]Which one though? The younger of the two was only given four years for manslaughter.[/p][/quote]Hello Tweacle, Interesting, I've responded to you or last comment twice and neither got through - I guess I shouldn't have confirmed the actual name of the individual Let's try it another way - it's confirmed as the person named at the start of Zaffres note. Regards. Angry of Lexden
  • Score: -2

7:22pm Tue 8 Apr 14

Tweacle Tart says...

Angry of Lexden wrote:
Tweacle Tart wrote:
Angry of Lexden wrote:
Zaffre wrote:
Our teen killer, Alex Young got 15 years in 2008 so Redman should get more than 5 years surely. http://news.bbc.co.u k/1/hi/uk/7463525.st m
Sad to tell you that a colleague of mine's son, who was at the same school as the killers of that young mum, was horrified to come face to face with one them last year in Colchester. By my reckoning that's five years free board and lodging for a brutal murder.
Which one though? The younger of the two was only given four years for manslaughter.
Hello Tweacle,
Interesting, I've responded to you or last comment twice and neither got through - I guess I shouldn't have confirmed the actual name of the individual

Let's try it another way - it's confirmed as the person named at the start of Zaffres note.

Regards.
Thanks for clarifying. That's terrible and extremely disappointing if that's the case. I remember I followed that trial and it was awful. At the end of the day, minimum term you should serve should mean just that :(
[quote][p][bold]Angry of Lexden[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Tweacle Tart[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Angry of Lexden[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Zaffre[/bold] wrote: Our teen killer, Alex Young got 15 years in 2008 so Redman should get more than 5 years surely. http://news.bbc.co.u k/1/hi/uk/7463525.st m[/p][/quote]Sad to tell you that a colleague of mine's son, who was at the same school as the killers of that young mum, was horrified to come face to face with one them last year in Colchester. By my reckoning that's five years free board and lodging for a brutal murder.[/p][/quote]Which one though? The younger of the two was only given four years for manslaughter.[/p][/quote]Hello Tweacle, Interesting, I've responded to you or last comment twice and neither got through - I guess I shouldn't have confirmed the actual name of the individual Let's try it another way - it's confirmed as the person named at the start of Zaffres note. Regards.[/p][/quote]Thanks for clarifying. That's terrible and extremely disappointing if that's the case. I remember I followed that trial and it was awful. At the end of the day, minimum term you should serve should mean just that :( Tweacle Tart
  • Score: 2

8:09pm Tue 8 Apr 14

Zaffre says...

Was Redman 18 at the time of the offence?
Was Redman 18 at the time of the offence? Zaffre
  • Score: -3

8:14pm Tue 8 Apr 14

Tweacle Tart says...

Zaffre wrote:
Was Redman 18 at the time of the offence?
I believe he was 17 as he wasn't initially named.
[quote][p][bold]Zaffre[/bold] wrote: Was Redman 18 at the time of the offence?[/p][/quote]I believe he was 17 as he wasn't initially named. Tweacle Tart
  • Score: 3

8:32pm Tue 8 Apr 14

jennix_87 says...

Yendor says wrote:
For murders committed with a knife after 2 March 2010 the minimum term is now 25 years ..... Shame !
This unfortunately cannot be true, as Mark Czapla, who was found guilty last week of stabbing his girlfriend and slashing her throat with a knife, and leaving her body to be found by her 4 year old daughter the next morning only got 23 years, but on the other hand, mark wasn't an angel, but he didn't have a long lost of previous convictions unlike red man, on that basis, I think it's safe to say that redman will get at least 25 years. At least Jays family now have someof the answers they needed, and can finally get some closure on the horrific murder of their son. Rest in peace Jay
[quote][p][bold]Yendor says[/bold] wrote: For murders committed with a knife after 2 March 2010 the minimum term is now 25 years ..... Shame ![/p][/quote]This unfortunately cannot be true, as Mark Czapla, who was found guilty last week of stabbing his girlfriend and slashing her throat with a knife, and leaving her body to be found by her 4 year old daughter the next morning only got 23 years, but on the other hand, mark wasn't an angel, but he didn't have a long lost of previous convictions unlike red man, on that basis, I think it's safe to say that redman will get at least 25 years. At least Jays family now have someof the answers they needed, and can finally get some closure on the horrific murder of their son. Rest in peace Jay jennix_87
  • Score: 3

8:54pm Tue 8 Apr 14

Angry of Lexden says...

Tweacle Tart wrote:
Zaffre wrote:
Was Redman 18 at the time of the offence?
I believe he was 17 as he wasn't initially named.
To all,
Hopefully the change in the tariff of 2010 for knife crime will give the judge the power to make sure Redmon and his evil family can't revisit our town too soon. This terrible thing has devastated everyone local who knows about it. I know a young person who was "legally" at the party. When Redmon arrived they recognised him and decided to leave.
What scares me is that the incidence of violence in the town is such that, I now know one person who was at the party and who three weeks later was robbed at gun point, and a colleague who's child knew Alex Young. I'll bet there are others in Colchester who feel the horror of a rising tide of violent crime. The deterrents and punishments aren't effective.
[quote][p][bold]Tweacle Tart[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Zaffre[/bold] wrote: Was Redman 18 at the time of the offence?[/p][/quote]I believe he was 17 as he wasn't initially named.[/p][/quote]To all, Hopefully the change in the tariff of 2010 for knife crime will give the judge the power to make sure Redmon and his evil family can't revisit our town too soon. This terrible thing has devastated everyone local who knows about it. I know a young person who was "legally" at the party. When Redmon arrived they recognised him and decided to leave. What scares me is that the incidence of violence in the town is such that, I now know one person who was at the party and who three weeks later was robbed at gun point, and a colleague who's child knew Alex Young. I'll bet there are others in Colchester who feel the horror of a rising tide of violent crime. The deterrents and punishments aren't effective. Angry of Lexden
  • Score: 4

9:42pm Tue 8 Apr 14

Jack O Simons says...

We need another `Devil`s Island` to home these thugs for life.
We need another `Devil`s Island` to home these thugs for life. Jack O Simons
  • Score: 2

10:10pm Tue 8 Apr 14

Council Man says...

Council Man wrote:
According to tonight’s news report he was smiling as he was taken down. Apparently he is a prolific offender who has many previous convictions for violence amongst other things. I hope this scumbag get a long sentence giving him time to reflect on what he has done. My heart goes out to Jay’s family; they must feel some small sense of relief at what has been a very long and stressful 13 week trial. Redman could have avoided this by doing the decent thing and pleading guilty, he had big enough balls to stick a knife into someone and end their life but not big enough to take the witness stand and answer for his actions or even defend himself. This makes him a coward and his family, father and brother are lower than the lowest form of life, I hope they also get lengthy custodial sentences.
In situations such as this my thoughts are usually with both the family of the deceased and the family of the perpetrator as they too would have been affected by what had happened. There are no winner’s just losers and lives changed forever. However, in this instance, I have absolutely no sympathy for the Redman family I hope their lives are ruined beyond repair. Let’s see how young Redman gets on in an adult prison, I understand the older lifers like young meat, maybe he’ll get something stuck into him…………… if you know what I mean ; - )
Let’s see how young Redman gets on in an adult prison, I understand the inmates serving life like young fresh meat, maybe Redman will get something stuck into him…………… if you know what I mean ; - )
[quote][p][bold]Council Man[/bold] wrote: According to tonight’s news report he was smiling as he was taken down. Apparently he is a prolific offender who has many previous convictions for violence amongst other things. I hope this scumbag get a long sentence giving him time to reflect on what he has done. My heart goes out to Jay’s family; they must feel some small sense of relief at what has been a very long and stressful 13 week trial. Redman could have avoided this by doing the decent thing and pleading guilty, he had big enough balls to stick a knife into someone and end their life but not big enough to take the witness stand and answer for his actions or even defend himself. This makes him a coward and his family, father and brother are lower than the lowest form of life, I hope they also get lengthy custodial sentences. In situations such as this my thoughts are usually with both the family of the deceased and the family of the perpetrator as they too would have been affected by what had happened. There are no winner’s just losers and lives changed forever. However, in this instance, I have absolutely no sympathy for the Redman family I hope their lives are ruined beyond repair. Let’s see how young Redman gets on in an adult prison, I understand the older lifers like young meat, maybe he’ll get something stuck into him…………… if you know what I mean ; - )[/p][/quote]Let’s see how young Redman gets on in an adult prison, I understand the inmates serving life like young fresh meat, maybe Redman will get something stuck into him…………… if you know what I mean ; - ) Council Man
  • Score: 6

10:16pm Tue 8 Apr 14

Council Man says...

Let’s see how young Redman gets on in an adult prison, I understand the inmates serving life like young fresh meat, maybe Redman will get something stuck into him…………… if you know what I mean ; - )
Let’s see how young Redman gets on in an adult prison, I understand the inmates serving life like young fresh meat, maybe Redman will get something stuck into him…………… if you know what I mean ; - ) Council Man
  • Score: 6

10:54pm Tue 8 Apr 14

Angry of Lexden says...

Jack O Simons wrote:
We need another `Devil`s Island` to home these thugs for life.
Sound idea but no go - it would infringe his human rights. Possibly it was our fear of infringing bad men's rights that allowed the monster in Redman to develop and in time take Jay's human right to life. It's out of balance the bad guys are winning.
[quote][p][bold]Jack O Simons[/bold] wrote: We need another `Devil`s Island` to home these thugs for life.[/p][/quote]Sound idea but no go - it would infringe his human rights. Possibly it was our fear of infringing bad men's rights that allowed the monster in Redman to develop and in time take Jay's human right to life. It's out of balance the bad guys are winning. Angry of Lexden
  • Score: 2

11:07pm Tue 8 Apr 14

strictmum says...

I hope that evil boy gets a minimum of 25 years, I would hope that he is locked away for life and I mean life.
His family are despicable for protecting Ed and deserve an equally long sentence.
I hope that after sentencing Jay's poor family can move forward with their lives as they have lost such a lovely young man and Jay didn't deserve this.
I do hope that Ed gets everything he deserves in prison, a lowlife like him really should have his whole life ruined too. He will find that he is no longer the hard man in prison and will get his just deserts.
I hope that evil boy gets a minimum of 25 years, I would hope that he is locked away for life and I mean life. His family are despicable for protecting Ed and deserve an equally long sentence. I hope that after sentencing Jay's poor family can move forward with their lives as they have lost such a lovely young man and Jay didn't deserve this. I do hope that Ed gets everything he deserves in prison, a lowlife like him really should have his whole life ruined too. He will find that he is no longer the hard man in prison and will get his just deserts. strictmum
  • Score: 6

11:29pm Tue 8 Apr 14

Tweacle Tart says...

25 years is a starting point but this can be increased due to aggravating factors, like his previous offending history, destruction of evidence, lack of remorse - but also reduced due to mitigating factors - I can only think of one and that's his age but it's a big one. Lack of premeditation is possibly another. Rest assured, the judge will take all of those factors into consideration when arriving at his sentence. Whatever it is, it will not be enough for Jay's family and friends. The boy is clearly has nothing to offer a civilised society right now. Will prison change that? Sadly, I doubt it. I suspect his conviction will be worn as a badge of honour.

Whole life tariffs are very rare in this country and are reserved for the most serious of crimes. Whilst this murder was awful and has clearly devastated the Whiston family, it doesn't warrant a whole life term I'm afraid.
25 years is a starting point but this can be increased due to aggravating factors, like his previous offending history, destruction of evidence, lack of remorse - but also reduced due to mitigating factors - I can only think of one and that's his age but it's a big one. Lack of premeditation is possibly another. Rest assured, the judge will take all of those factors into consideration when arriving at his sentence. Whatever it is, it will not be enough for Jay's family and friends. The boy is clearly has nothing to offer a civilised society right now. Will prison change that? Sadly, I doubt it. I suspect his conviction will be worn as a badge of honour. Whole life tariffs are very rare in this country and are reserved for the most serious of crimes. Whilst this murder was awful and has clearly devastated the Whiston family, it doesn't warrant a whole life term I'm afraid. Tweacle Tart
  • Score: 0

11:52pm Tue 8 Apr 14

Tweacle Tart says...

Sorry, just realised the 25 year minimum starting point is for ADULTS. As Redman was 17 at the time, his starting point will be twelve years.

I think that's right anyway. Feel free to correct me.

http://news.bbc.co.u
k/1/hi/uk_politics/8
353085.stm

From Yendor's link:

"Offenders under 18 years old
For an offender who is a youth when they committed the offence the appropriate starting point is 12 years detention at Her Majesty's pleasure."
Sorry, just realised the 25 year minimum starting point is for ADULTS. As Redman was 17 at the time, his starting point will be twelve years. I think that's right anyway. Feel free to correct me. http://news.bbc.co.u k/1/hi/uk_politics/8 353085.stm From Yendor's link: "Offenders under 18 years old For an offender who is a youth when they committed the offence the appropriate starting point is 12 years detention at Her Majesty's pleasure." Tweacle Tart
  • Score: 2

12:15am Wed 9 Apr 14

Angry of Lexden says...

Tweacle Tart wrote:
25 years is a starting point but this can be increased due to aggravating factors, like his previous offending history, destruction of evidence, lack of remorse - but also reduced due to mitigating factors - I can only think of one and that's his age but it's a big one. Lack of premeditation is possibly another. Rest assured, the judge will take all of those factors into consideration when arriving at his sentence. Whatever it is, it will not be enough for Jay's family and friends. The boy is clearly has nothing to offer a civilised society right now. Will prison change that? Sadly, I doubt it. I suspect his conviction will be worn as a badge of honour.

Whole life tariffs are very rare in this country and are reserved for the most serious of crimes. Whilst this murder was awful and has clearly devastated the Whiston family, it doesn't warrant a whole life term I'm afraid.
Treacle tart,
I fear you may be right. But we have to make the effort "to swing the helm back on course". Bet none of us have the time or guts to write to the Attorney General on this.

I'm going to draft a note tomorrow, and re-read it Thursday. Will you guys make time?
[quote][p][bold]Tweacle Tart[/bold] wrote: 25 years is a starting point but this can be increased due to aggravating factors, like his previous offending history, destruction of evidence, lack of remorse - but also reduced due to mitigating factors - I can only think of one and that's his age but it's a big one. Lack of premeditation is possibly another. Rest assured, the judge will take all of those factors into consideration when arriving at his sentence. Whatever it is, it will not be enough for Jay's family and friends. The boy is clearly has nothing to offer a civilised society right now. Will prison change that? Sadly, I doubt it. I suspect his conviction will be worn as a badge of honour. Whole life tariffs are very rare in this country and are reserved for the most serious of crimes. Whilst this murder was awful and has clearly devastated the Whiston family, it doesn't warrant a whole life term I'm afraid.[/p][/quote]Treacle tart, I fear you may be right. But we have to make the effort "to swing the helm back on course". Bet none of us have the time or guts to write to the Attorney General on this. I'm going to draft a note tomorrow, and re-read it Thursday. Will you guys make time? Angry of Lexden
  • Score: 3

8:38am Wed 9 Apr 14

shallowJoker says...

So many lives ruined and for what?
So many lives ruined and for what? shallowJoker
  • Score: 3

10:06am Wed 9 Apr 14

Zaffre says...

Tweacle Tart wrote:
Sorry, just realised the 25 year minimum starting point is for ADULTS. As Redman was 17 at the time, his starting point will be twelve years.

I think that's right anyway. Feel free to correct me.

http://news.bbc.co.u

k/1/hi/uk_politics/8

353085.stm

From Yendor's link:

"Offenders under 18 years old
For an offender who is a youth when they committed the offence the appropriate starting point is 12 years detention at Her Majesty's pleasure."
Yes, that is why I'd asked earlier as I'd read the 25 year sentence does not apply to those who commit the crime under 18 years old. 12 years is still only the starting point though.
[quote][p][bold]Tweacle Tart[/bold] wrote: Sorry, just realised the 25 year minimum starting point is for ADULTS. As Redman was 17 at the time, his starting point will be twelve years. I think that's right anyway. Feel free to correct me. http://news.bbc.co.u k/1/hi/uk_politics/8 353085.stm From Yendor's link: "Offenders under 18 years old For an offender who is a youth when they committed the offence the appropriate starting point is 12 years detention at Her Majesty's pleasure."[/p][/quote]Yes, that is why I'd asked earlier as I'd read the 25 year sentence does not apply to those who commit the crime under 18 years old. 12 years is still only the starting point though. Zaffre
  • Score: 1

10:08am Wed 9 Apr 14

Tweacle Tart says...

Angry of Lexden wrote:
Tweacle Tart wrote:
25 years is a starting point but this can be increased due to aggravating factors, like his previous offending history, destruction of evidence, lack of remorse - but also reduced due to mitigating factors - I can only think of one and that's his age but it's a big one. Lack of premeditation is possibly another. Rest assured, the judge will take all of those factors into consideration when arriving at his sentence. Whatever it is, it will not be enough for Jay's family and friends. The boy is clearly has nothing to offer a civilised society right now. Will prison change that? Sadly, I doubt it. I suspect his conviction will be worn as a badge of honour.

Whole life tariffs are very rare in this country and are reserved for the most serious of crimes. Whilst this murder was awful and has clearly devastated the Whiston family, it doesn't warrant a whole life term I'm afraid.
Treacle tart,
I fear you may be right. But we have to make the effort "to swing the helm back on course". Bet none of us have the time or guts to write to the Attorney General on this.

I'm going to draft a note tomorrow, and re-read it Thursday. Will you guys make time?
I'm happy to look over it for you :)

If you look at Yendor's link, a whole life term cannot be imposed on offenders aged 18-20 either - if it was serious enough to warrant a whole life tariff, their starting point is 30 years. I assume it's all to do with everybody having the chance to be rehabilitated.

I've followed a couple of horrendous trials (not locally) that involved sadistic conduct on victims described as vulnerable. Both had elements of torture for financial gain, taking photographs of the victims for pleasure amongst other unimaginable stuff - in one case, it took place over ten years - and destruction of the bodies. The ringleaders in both got 36 and 34 years respectively. Both had numerous previous convictions (138 in one case) and had absolutely nothing to offer in this world, a civilised society. Whole life tariffs were definitely warranted on those occasions in my opinion.

If you want to read about the cases I'm talking about, the victims were Michael Gilbert and Jamie Dack.

As the death penalty will NEVER be reintroduced in this country, whole life tariffs should be used more (as they are in the USA) but definitely remain only for serious cases. It's the definition of "serious" that needs to be looked at.

Jamie Dack's family said after the sentencing they didn't want the death penalty - they preferred the perpetrators (34, 32, 30 and 25 years respectively) to spend a long time rotting in their cells thinking about what they'd done and I personally think there is a quiet dignity in that.
[quote][p][bold]Angry of Lexden[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Tweacle Tart[/bold] wrote: 25 years is a starting point but this can be increased due to aggravating factors, like his previous offending history, destruction of evidence, lack of remorse - but also reduced due to mitigating factors - I can only think of one and that's his age but it's a big one. Lack of premeditation is possibly another. Rest assured, the judge will take all of those factors into consideration when arriving at his sentence. Whatever it is, it will not be enough for Jay's family and friends. The boy is clearly has nothing to offer a civilised society right now. Will prison change that? Sadly, I doubt it. I suspect his conviction will be worn as a badge of honour. Whole life tariffs are very rare in this country and are reserved for the most serious of crimes. Whilst this murder was awful and has clearly devastated the Whiston family, it doesn't warrant a whole life term I'm afraid.[/p][/quote]Treacle tart, I fear you may be right. But we have to make the effort "to swing the helm back on course". Bet none of us have the time or guts to write to the Attorney General on this. I'm going to draft a note tomorrow, and re-read it Thursday. Will you guys make time?[/p][/quote]I'm happy to look over it for you :) If you look at Yendor's link, a whole life term cannot be imposed on offenders aged 18-20 either - if it was serious enough to warrant a whole life tariff, their starting point is 30 years. I assume it's all to do with everybody having the chance to be rehabilitated. I've followed a couple of horrendous trials (not locally) that involved sadistic conduct on victims described as vulnerable. Both had elements of torture for financial gain, taking photographs of the victims for pleasure amongst other unimaginable stuff - in one case, it took place over ten years - and destruction of the bodies. The ringleaders in both got 36 and 34 years respectively. Both had numerous previous convictions (138 in one case) and had absolutely nothing to offer in this world, a civilised society. Whole life tariffs were definitely warranted on those occasions in my opinion. If you want to read about the cases I'm talking about, the victims were Michael Gilbert and Jamie Dack. As the death penalty will NEVER be reintroduced in this country, whole life tariffs should be used more (as they are in the USA) but definitely remain only for serious cases. It's the definition of "serious" that needs to be looked at. Jamie Dack's family said after the sentencing they didn't want the death penalty - they preferred the perpetrators (34, 32, 30 and 25 years respectively) to spend a long time rotting in their cells thinking about what they'd done and I personally think there is a quiet dignity in that. Tweacle Tart
  • Score: 0

10:17am Wed 9 Apr 14

Tweacle Tart says...

jennix_87 wrote:
Yendor says wrote:
For murders committed with a knife after 2 March 2010 the minimum term is now 25 years ..... Shame !
This unfortunately cannot be true, as Mark Czapla, who was found guilty last week of stabbing his girlfriend and slashing her throat with a knife, and leaving her body to be found by her 4 year old daughter the next morning only got 23 years, but on the other hand, mark wasn't an angel, but he didn't have a long lost of previous convictions unlike red man, on that basis, I think it's safe to say that redman will get at least 25 years. At least Jays family now have someof the answers they needed, and can finally get some closure on the horrific murder of their son. Rest in peace Jay
There must have been some mitigating factor that brought the sentence down a couple of years. I'm struggling to think of one to be honest. The judge will have explained it in his sentencing remarks.

They are sometimes published but it tends to be reserved for high profile cases or ones where whole life tariffs have been imposed. They make very interesting reading.
[quote][p][bold]jennix_87[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Yendor says[/bold] wrote: For murders committed with a knife after 2 March 2010 the minimum term is now 25 years ..... Shame ![/p][/quote]This unfortunately cannot be true, as Mark Czapla, who was found guilty last week of stabbing his girlfriend and slashing her throat with a knife, and leaving her body to be found by her 4 year old daughter the next morning only got 23 years, but on the other hand, mark wasn't an angel, but he didn't have a long lost of previous convictions unlike red man, on that basis, I think it's safe to say that redman will get at least 25 years. At least Jays family now have someof the answers they needed, and can finally get some closure on the horrific murder of their son. Rest in peace Jay[/p][/quote]There must have been some mitigating factor that brought the sentence down a couple of years. I'm struggling to think of one to be honest. The judge will have explained it in his sentencing remarks. They are sometimes published but it tends to be reserved for high profile cases or ones where whole life tariffs have been imposed. They make very interesting reading. Tweacle Tart
  • Score: 0

10:19am Wed 9 Apr 14

Tweacle Tart says...

Zaffre wrote:
Tweacle Tart wrote:
Sorry, just realised the 25 year minimum starting point is for ADULTS. As Redman was 17 at the time, his starting point will be twelve years.

I think that's right anyway. Feel free to correct me.

http://news.bbc.co.u


k/1/hi/uk_politics/8


353085.stm

From Yendor's link:

"Offenders under 18 years old
For an offender who is a youth when they committed the offence the appropriate starting point is 12 years detention at Her Majesty's pleasure."
Yes, that is why I'd asked earlier as I'd read the 25 year sentence does not apply to those who commit the crime under 18 years old. 12 years is still only the starting point though.
Yes, I agree with you. I realised why you'd asked afterwards. You're more on the ball than me! :)
[quote][p][bold]Zaffre[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Tweacle Tart[/bold] wrote: Sorry, just realised the 25 year minimum starting point is for ADULTS. As Redman was 17 at the time, his starting point will be twelve years. I think that's right anyway. Feel free to correct me. http://news.bbc.co.u k/1/hi/uk_politics/8 353085.stm From Yendor's link: "Offenders under 18 years old For an offender who is a youth when they committed the offence the appropriate starting point is 12 years detention at Her Majesty's pleasure."[/p][/quote]Yes, that is why I'd asked earlier as I'd read the 25 year sentence does not apply to those who commit the crime under 18 years old. 12 years is still only the starting point though.[/p][/quote]Yes, I agree with you. I realised why you'd asked afterwards. You're more on the ball than me! :) Tweacle Tart
  • Score: 1

11:31pm Tue 22 Apr 14

strictmum says...

I really hope that this piece of scum gets what he deserves on the 1st May. I for one will go beserk if he doesn't go down for a very long time. Having known this boy he never was a good lad, and there are too many like him that need to be sent away to a borstall at a young age. If that doesn't work keep them locked up as it has proven the bad eggs that you know are rotten don't change and cause havoc. Being soft with his type is a joke. I have heard some say that his brother is nice; I don't think so he should get at least 15 years for perverting the cause of justice along with the others. I hope the Judge has the balls to send them all down for a very long time. RIP Jay.
I really hope that this piece of scum gets what he deserves on the 1st May. I for one will go beserk if he doesn't go down for a very long time. Having known this boy he never was a good lad, and there are too many like him that need to be sent away to a borstall at a young age. If that doesn't work keep them locked up as it has proven the bad eggs that you know are rotten don't change and cause havoc. Being soft with his type is a joke. I have heard some say that his brother is nice; I don't think so he should get at least 15 years for perverting the cause of justice along with the others. I hope the Judge has the balls to send them all down for a very long time. RIP Jay. strictmum
  • Score: 1

12:00am Thu 24 Apr 14

Angry of Lexden says...

Strictmum,
I agree with you. I know a young person who was a legitimate guest at the party. When Redman and his mates turned up he tried to leave. But it all happened too fast. He us now terrified that Redman will get out in the next ten or so years and come after him - the lad I know had the balls to be a witness. The police promised a safe emergency phone number if the lad would be a witness, but, surprise! - alll the police officers concerned now deny such an offer of phone number was offered.
Strictmum, I agree with you. I know a young person who was a legitimate guest at the party. When Redman and his mates turned up he tried to leave. But it all happened too fast. He us now terrified that Redman will get out in the next ten or so years and come after him - the lad I know had the balls to be a witness. The police promised a safe emergency phone number if the lad would be a witness, but, surprise! - alll the police officers concerned now deny such an offer of phone number was offered. Angry of Lexden
  • Score: 0

7:55am Thu 24 Apr 14

A Very Private Gentleman says...

watch the movie HARRY BROWN with Michael Caine
This t**t and his father very much like the characters in the movie that got wasted in the end.
Colchester wont forget
Jay R.I.P Friend.

(Redmen and his family is another matter). Drunk angry or not.
watch the movie HARRY BROWN with Michael Caine This t**t and his father very much like the characters in the movie that got wasted in the end. Colchester wont forget Jay R.I.P Friend. (Redmen and his family is another matter). Drunk angry or not. A Very Private Gentleman
  • Score: 2

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